[09.14.2007] Indiana State (1-0) at #25 Butler (1-0)

[Bluethunder]

As good as it was to start the year of with a victory against the Oaks, Wednesday will be the real test. We have beaten Butler three years in a row and have a good chance of making it four. How good is Butler supposed to be this year? I know it doesn't mean a whole lot considering they were picked fifth last year in the Horizon and blew past that, but how have they looked so far? I know they lost Crone but have Graves back. Anyone from Indy with some info? Wish I could go but it is a weeknight. Was there last time when Tyson stuck it from 25 feet, what a great ending. Hope we can win by a larger margin this year.

[BlueSycamore]

Here is the Butler fans website:

http://p214.ezboard.com/fbuhoopsfrm1

Our defensive plan should be DON'T LET CAMPBELL SHOOT, DON'T LET CAMPBELL SHOOT, DON'T LET CAMPBELL SHOOT! DON'T LET GRAVES DRIVE & DISH; MAKE HIM SHOOT!

[Blue Streaker]

I never thought I would see someone project a game plan for Graves to shoot. How about playing very good defense and contesting every shot.

[BankShot]

I'm not worried about our "D"...we'll hold our own. I'm looking for continued fluidity and GROWTH in the Big Mac "O."

Butler will be surprised at the changes in ISU "ballroom" dancing style...the Waltz is history.

:sycamores:

[gostate03]

I am very excited about wednesday, all that I hear up in Indy is how good Butler is and what they are going to do this year. On the butler web site they are all saying how this is going to be a blowout, we are down this year, and how Graves is going to get his first win vs ISU.
I hope we can bring up a good crowd to Hinkle and continue to get better as a team. It is going to be tough (butlers home opener) but I look forward to a very competitive game that is going to be fun to watch!!

GO STATE!!!

[BlueSycamore]

Shooting is not a Graves strong point when he has to shoot it & other shooters are taken out of the equation. I don't mean let him stand out & sight it for 10 seconds but don't let him drive & dish to the real shooters.

[Bluethunder]

I don't get why Butler would think this would be a blowout. Not saying that they are wrong to think Butler will win, but I don't see it as a blowout. We won last year, and I think we have a stronger team, and I think Butler is not as strong as last year. This equation does not translate to a blowout.

[BankShot]

You know how some 'Dawgs are...more bark than bite.:krazy:

Butler has always thought that they're a notch above ISU because of their 'Nap "private school" status. That's why I love it when we kick their :censored: -sses!

[bent20]

But Butler fans think they lost last year because of the refs.

[BankShot]

Now that's what I call a substantive argument! I was hoping that we'd keep those free Rally's post-game burgers & fries under the table...:krazy:

Found this @ Wikepedia, which is WHY I love to kick Butler:

The 2006-2007 men's Butler basketball team won the NIT Season Tip-Off, which in part helped them to be named one of the top 12 underdog sports stories of 2006 by ESPN. [4]For the third time in six years, the Bulldogs won their first ten games. Butler finished the regular season ranked No. 19 in both the latest ESPN/USA Today Coaches and AP Top 25 Polls. [5] [6] The Butler program has traditionally been one of the best of the so-called "mid-major" basketball programs over the last decade, having won at least 20 games and reached postseason play eight of the last ten seasons, including five NCAA Tournaments.[7] The now-unique style of team play that many have said harkens back to the Hoosier glory days, as well as being called the way the game should be played, has been dubbed "The Butler Way" by the Bulldog program. [8][9] During the 06-07 season, Butler junior guard AJ Graves was named a Wooden Award National Player of the Year finalist in men's college basketball, while Head Coach Todd Lickliter was also awarded the 2006-07 mid-season Jim Phelan National Coach of the Year[10] and the National Association of Basketball Coaches National Coach of the Year honors.

In the 2007 NCAA Men's Division I Basketball Tournament Butler earned a 5th seed, the highest seed in the school's history. It's previous highest seed was 10th in 2001. Butler was ranked in the AP Top 25 throughout the 2006-2007 season, and as high as No. 9, another school record. In the first round of the Midwest Regional, Butler defeated 12th seeded Old Dominion University 57-46. In round two of the Midwest Regional, Butler defeated the 4th seeded Maryland by a score of 62 to 59, earning a trip to the Sweet Sixteen in St. Louis, MO to play #1 seed University of Florida. This marked the second time in five years and the third time in the school's history that Butler has reached the Sweet Sixteen.

Butler reached the Sweet Sixteen as a No. 12 seed in the 2003 NCAA Tournament by defeating No. 5 Mississippi State and No. 4 Louisville, becoming that year's Cinderella. Butler also defeated Wake Forest, 79-63, in the first round of the 2001 NCAA Tournament as a No. 10 seed, while their heartbreaking 69-68 overtime loss to eventual national runner-up Florida in the 2000 tournament as a No. 12 seed has seen regular rotation on TV over the years as an ESPN "Classic." Butler's exclusion as a 25-5 team from the 2002 tournament was also considered b many as the biggest NCAA selection "snub" in several years. [11][12][13]

Of note, Butler has the best winning percentage and most wins of all D-I men's basketball programs in the state of Indiana over the last decade (21.6 wins per year through 2006), while having won the last six meetings with in-state rival Notre Dame and two of the last four against Indiana University.[14][15] Butler defeated both Notre Dame and Indiana during the 2006-07 regular season, while also defeating in-state rival Purdue to move to 2-0 against the Boilermakers this decade. Butler has also been the defending champion of the Hoosier Classic men's basketball tournament since the 2001-02 season,[16][17] and has advanced to postseason play eight of the last ten years (5 NCAA's, 3 NIT's). Butler has been to six NCAA Tournaments since 1997. [18]

I'll end by disclosing that former Illinois Sec of State/Governor (now convicted felon) GEORGE RYAN and People's Temple cult leader JIM JONES are two of Butler's illustrious alumni.

[Eleven]

he Butler program has traditionally been one of the best of the so-called "mid-major" basketball programs over the last decade...

Ugh... think that's pouring it on a little thick?
Let's see, you play in a 1 bid conference.... and you've got 5 NCAA bids... wonder how weak that conference is historically?

No mention of the other Indiana Schools that have owned them of course..... I'm actually surprised that they don't have the fact that they've owned Ball State in recent years listed as well.

[ISUCC]

I would suspect Butler fans have thought they'd blow out ISU the past 3 season, but look at what's happened in each game? A BU loss, so there's no reason for them to change now, I see another ISU win coming.

I believe the game will be on for free (video) on the interent at the Horizon League TV site.

[gostate03]

Is there a Pre game event at Moe and Johnies this year? I know last time we had one it was a good time, If anyone has heard anything let me know!
Are manying people coming up for the game with it being on a wednesday? I know of some sycamores that live in Indy that are going but I am sure that we will need all that we can get! Should be a good one

GO STATE!!

[Eleven]

Is there a Pre game event at Moe and Johnies this year? I know last time we had one it was a good time, If anyone has heard anything let me know!
Are manying people coming up for the game with it being on a wednesday? I know of some sycamores that live in Indy that are going but I am sure that we will need all that we can get! Should be a good one
GO STATE!!
Yes there is... I tried to find the post about it... but it must have been over at the other board. I'll find it and post the details.
Edit: Found it. from:
http://members.boardhost.com/isuhoopforum/msg/1194457186.html



Since we are ALL anxious to get this basketball season underway, I thought I would remind all of you that the ISU Indy group is hosting a pre-game party before the ISU-Butler game at Moe and Johnny's on Indy's northside next Wednesday from 4:30p-6:30pm. No reservations are necessary but I wanted to let you know that you can order game tickets thru John Newton and the Alumni Office by calling 800 258-6478. This is ALWAYS a fun event and is particularlly gratifying when the Sycamore fans take over Butler's favorite bar! I hope to see many of you there! GOOD LUCK to the TREES!

[Nothballa022]

They left out one part in that little story. The Sycamores have beaten Bulldogs the last three years.

[gostate03]

Nice, thanks for the info, hope to see alot of sycamores before and at the game

[ddmccoy1978]

Butler fan here, and I think you guys are starting to stretch a few things. There may be a poster or two on our board who thinks this will be a blowout, but in my opinion and a majority of others on our board, we think this should be a pretty good ball game. At this point, we aren't even close to the team we were last year. We certainly have more "talent" than a year ago, but with a few new faces, it will take some time for us to come together as a team. I think once we're able to gel together, players find their roles, then we'll have the ability to be better than last year, but right now, that?s not the case. The loss of Crone is a big problem right now; however, Howard's presence in the post is a bright spot for us, in addition to our reliable guard play. We obviously have a lot of offensive options this season: Green and Graves can dribble drive or shoot, Campbell is lethal from deep and as I said with Howard, we now have a back to the basket scorer in the post (something we haven't had in a long time).

On the other side of the floor, I think we're still figuring things out defensively. Sure, Butler will always have a strong defense, but with new faces, we had some mental lapses against Ball State and they were able to score some easy hoops...but it wasn't from a lack of effort. I guess the only other concerns Butler might have right now is the uncharacteristic 11 turnovers we had at BSU. Sure, most teams would die to only turn it over 11 times, but for Butler, that's way too much. I'm not sure if it was the adrenaline pumping from the start of a new season or our players are still learning each other's style, but I'd like to think we'll tighten up our play and take care of the ball as the season goes along. If you have any further questions, feel free to ask and I'll do my best to answer those.

As for your disagreement with "the Butler program has traditionally been one of the best of the so-called "mid-major" basketball programs over the last decade..." I don't think that is too far off. Butler's record in the last decade is 222-98. Of course, the standard reply is that the Bulldogs play in a weak conference. Fair enough, but Butler justifies itself by having five NCAA Tournament appearances with five tournament wins, including two Sweet 16 appearances in five years. Until you can find me four to five other "mid-majors" with a similar resume, then it's safe to say the above statement is in fact true.

Not here to get into a pi$$ing match, I'd love to chat about the game. Thanks.

[Eleven]

Of course, the standard reply is that the Bulldogs play in a weak conference. Fair enough, but Butler justifies itself by having five NCAA Tournament appearances with five tournament wins, including two Sweet 16 appearances in five years.

Two Sweet 16 appearances I will give serious credence to. 5 NCAA appearances... How many of those were because Bulter won their conference? How many times did the conference send multiple teams? (Note - the MVC may well just send 1 this year as well.)
Only have to 2002 available to me.. but how do you get 5 NCAA appearances in 5 years from the following?

2002 - 1st - Detroit 2nd, Wisconsin-Milwaukee 3rd 1.5 games out of conference lead 15-13.
2003 - 1st - Wisconsin-Milwaukee 2nd - 1 game back 24-8.
2004 - 6th - Wisconsin-Milwaukee 1st 20-11.
2005 - 7th - Wisconsin-Milwaukee 1st 26-6.
2006 - 2nd - Wisconsin-Milwaukee 1st 22-9.
2007 - 1st - Wright State 2nd 18-15.

Looks like Wisconsin-Milwaukee has been the biggest competition in the Horizon League averaging over 20 wins per season through that period. Are they one of the "best so-called mid-majors" as well?

[BU Grad]

It's not five appearances in five years, it's two sweet 16 appearances in five years and five wins in five appearances. We have gone three times as the conference tournament champ and twice as an at-large bid in that span. Both Sweet 16 appearances came as at-large bids. In 2002 we were the regular season champs but lost in the tournament and did not get an at-large bid. A couple of NIT bids in there (2002 and 2006) as well.

Regardless, Wikipedia is not exactly authoritative. I'd be willing to bet that the Butler entry was written by someone very closely associated with the school, thus there are probably statements that aren't really facts but are more opinions. That wouldn't be the first time something like that has happened on that site.

Anyway, best of luck tomorrow (within reason ;-)). Some of us wanted to talk about the game since you all are kind of a black box with a new coach. We are kind of in a similar boat, but you all seem to care about other things.

[gostate03]

What does butler have as far as depth? I know that they start 5 seniors (I think a couple are 5th and a 6th year in there) but that is really all that I have heard. I like what we have coming off the bench and it will be interesting to see how far coach goes into that now that we are playing someone on our level. Maybe if we get up and down the floor they will start to wear out?

GO STATE!

[IndyTreeFan]

I would expect a real game out of this one. ISU will be employing a totally different look than they have the past 3 ISU/BU games (or 10, if you're counting). KMac's warriors will switch up defenses on you, they might press a bit, and they won't look to run the shot clock down each time down the court. We seem to be a bit more athletic this year, thanks in large part to our freshmen, who have been outstanding thus far. This team has a lot of experience, some good, some bad. They've proven in the past that they can beat anyone on the schedule.

I really think both teams are matched up well with each other. Butler has the homecourt advantage in this one, both backcourts are matched up well, I'd give ISU a slight (very slight) frontcourt advantage, with the addition of Martin, and I'd give ISU the edge in coaching. Butler certainly grabs the advantage in confidence, and that plus the homecourt will probably overcome the ISU edges.

This one will be close, but while my heart says ISU, my head says Butler. It should be a great learning experience for the Trees, though.

Was that the kind of discussion you Butler fans were looking for?

:sycamores::sycamores::sycamores:

[ddmccoy1978]

Well, up until the start of the season we were all pretty excited about our depth, but it took a decent hit when #21 Willie Veasley (6-3, 190 G/F), a sophomore, went down with a MCL tear in our second exhibition game on Nov. 3. He'll be sidelined for 3-5 weeks. He would have been our first or second guy off the bench and one of our better defenders. He's strong and quick and full of athletic ability. Even though he stands at just 6-3, he's one of our better post defenders.

Aside from Veasley, our bench currently consists of three freshman: #54 Matt Howard (C, 6-8, 220, 14 pts vs. BSU), #3 Zach Hahn (G, 6-0, 170) and #2 Shawn Vanzant (G, 6-1, 175). Although Howard is coming off the bench, none of us will be surprised if he becomes a starter pretty soon. So far he's proven he can be our inside scorer and our best rebounder. Hahn and Vanzant are extremely quick and athletic guards. Even though they're freshman, they seem rather confident and comfortable being out on the floor. Sure, they'll make their freshman mistakes, but if Green or Graves need a breather, I'm confident they can come in handle their role just fine.

After that, we don't have much coming off the bench. We'll add sophomore Avery Jukes (6-8, 214), a transfer from Alabama, to the mix once he becomes elgible after first semester. I believe his first game will be Dec. 15 against Florida State. Of course, that doesn't mean much to Indiana State right now.

[BU Grad]

First guy off the bench will probably be Matt Howard, 6'7" 220 from Connersville. Matt was pretty highly touted coming out of high school and has been fun to watch. He's pretty adept at positioning himself for rebounds and passes pretty well and his offensive game is pretty good for a freshman. There was quite a debate this summer if Matt was going to start or not. Like I said, he was highly touted (three star recruit maybe? for whatever that's worth) but the five seniors got the start at Ball State. Who knows if that will continue, but most likely it will for tomorrow. Matt played more minutes than both Drew Streicher and Julian Betko at Ball State, but that was as much due to foul trouble early for those guys as anything.

Next are two freshman guards, Shawn Vanzant and Zach Hahn (so yes, our first three guys off the bench are freshmen, more on that in a bit). Both are pretty quick, but Shawn is probably faster than Zach and Zach is probably a little better ball handler than Shawn. Zach went to New Castle high school, same as former Bulldogs Brandon Miller, Darnell Archey, and Bruce Horan. He is probably built a little more like Horan with an attitude more like Miller. I don't remember it happening during Ball State, but depending on the line up that's out there, you could have all three freshman out there at the same time, and you might see Zach and Shawn both out their without Green or Graves.

After those guys Elliot Englemann (6'7" 205, but he is more of an outside guy like Campbell) will probably see some minutes, and possibly Grant Leiendecker (6'3" shooter). We are without the services tomorrow of Willie Veasley, who would have been the sixth or seventh man. He's got a slight tear of his MCL and will be out 2-4 more weeks, I think.

What our bench gives us is more flexibility that in previous years. Last year we were pretty much seven deep, with zero depth at guard. Now, Mike Green and AJ Graves can get breaks and we don't suffer too much. Matt Howard gives us a little more reliable post presence than Brian Ligon did. What we miss this year is the mismatch that Brandon Crone created on offense (he was too big for a 3 to guard and too fast for a 4 to guard) and his versatility on defense (but he could defend 3-4 positions). Willie was going to make up for some of that before he got hurt.

Overall, our offense is pretty much the same, but you'll see more passes into the post. Howard can catch the ball, pass well if he doesn't have the right look, and moves better around the hoop than Ligon did (who, in his defense, tore both ACLs in his college career). The defense is the same, except Howard is a little more of a shot blocking threat than we've had.

There's your report. Some of us don't really know what kind of hand we've been dealt because they haven't been tested. A lot fans will tell you "we should be good, but... (new coach, no Crone, etc.)" We are also the same school that had most every ball bounce our way last year. AJ misses the shot at the end of the Notre Dame game, and you guys beat just another team from the Horizon League, not the #15th team in the nation.

EDIT: Looks like DD posted at the same time I did, sorry about that.

[ISUCC]

this is gonna be the first "real" test of the season for the new guys. Stinson, Martin, Tunnell, Carter, Moore, Lee, Molmstrom, Marshall, McCoy and all the rest have had their bright spots. The key will be, can they do it all on the same night against BU. Hopefully so, and as some others have posted, this will be a completely different look for ISU against Butler, so how will both teams respond? Has ISU learned the McKenna system of offense yet? Hard telling, but I suspect it will be a close game and neither team will blow the other team out.

Seems like alot of ISU fans will be there again too.

just my 2 cents

Butler fans, will this be on the Horizon League TV site for free tomorrow night?????

:sycamores:

[ddmccoy1978]

Yes, for all you ISU fans not traveling to Indianapolis tomorrow night, you can watch the game online at the HLN (Horizon League Network).

Click on the following link and register on the right side...it's free.
Horizon League Network Link (http://www.horizonleaguenetwork.tv/login_register.aspx?ReturnUrl=%2flive.aspx%3fSched uleID%3d673&ScheduleID=673)

Hope that helps!

[gostate03]

What kind of crowd is expected? I am sure that the place will not be full but I would guess around 8,000 or so? What do you think? I noticed that prices jumped up for BU games as well, I wonder if that will affect the turnout, $20 is the cheapest ticket you can get, that seems kind of high to me, but hopefully it will be worth it!!!!

GO STATE

[Superfan312]

I know most of the front row club from the student section will be there. I, however, have a class that night, so I may not be able to join them :mad::mad:

[Nothballa022]

I'm goin!

[BankShot]

"Wikepedia is not exactly authoritive"...

Perhaps the Indianapolis Office of Mayor or White House Press Corp should edit Butler-related entries?
Give me a break.

[Eleven]

Anyway, best of luck tomorrow (within reason ;-)). Some of us wanted to talk about the game since you all are kind of a black box with a new coach. We are kind of in a similar boat, but you all seem to care about other things.
Just so you know..this did not start out as a "game thread".... The thread's name was changed in mid-postings.

[BU Grad]

"Wikepedia is not exactly authoritive"...

Perhaps the Indianapolis Office of Mayor or White House Press Corp should edit Butler-related entries?
Give me a break.

I'm not suggesting any such thing. All I am saying is if you are going to cite Wikipedia in this case, you can't expect it to be independent/objective, which is what I would consider an authoritative source. The Butler entry was probably written by a BU employee, so of course it is going to be subjective. I know if I stuck that quote about being one of the best mid-majors in the nation in a news story about Butler and cited Wikipedia, an editor would laugh.

Now, if you wanted to, you could cite the slightly more objective ESPN Blue Ribbon preview on the Bulldogs, which starts off, "Butler, one of the most prestigious basketball programs in mid-majordom, has had more than its share of success." Blue Ribbon Preview (http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/insider/news/story?id=3038811&univLogin02=stateChanged&action=upsell&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncb %2finsider%2fnews%2fstory%3fid%3d3038811%26univLog in02%3dstateChanged)

Anyway, I saw that Gabe Moore, who killed us last year, had a pretty quiet game against Oakland. Was that because it was only Oakland? He's still going to cause us fits this year, right? Also, saw that the line for this game is ISU +15. I hope you all are taking advantage of that.

[Jason Svoboda]

Guys, I am not going to be able to make it to the game as I spaced on the fact that my youngest has a 5:30pm doctors appointment with his allergy doctor.

If anyone from the site goes tonight, please spread the word about our site!

[Jason Svoboda]

Just looking at the box score, a couple things jumped out at me:

- ISU shot 32.7% from the floor on 16 of 49 shooting
- State shot 5 of 22 from 3-point range... like 22%
- Butler shot 53.3% from the floor on 24 of 45 shooting.

If Cole and Stin are going to shoot 6 for 21 between them every game, it's about time to get other players some more shots. Jay was 3-4 and Gabe 3-5... why aren't they getting more shots?

[sycamorebacker]

Those stats are not reflective of who needs to shoot. Butler's D was so good that when we got open, we rushed our shots and didn't even sqare up. It's just a matter of reacting better to tight defense. I'm sure as the offense develops, we will get more open shots and we will shoot a higher %. I would like to see Gabe a little less reluctant to put it up, but I think that the upperclassmen are trying to run the offense and generate shots from it rather than just jacking shots up. I'm sure this is work-in-progress and will get better throughout the season.

We hope.

[Jason Svoboda]

Those stats are not reflective of who needs to shoot. Butler's D was so good that when we got open, we rushed our shots and didn't even sqare up. It's just a matter of reacting better to tight defense. I'm sure as the offense develops, we will get more open shots and we will shoot a higher %. I would like to see Gabe a little less reluctant to put it up, but I think that the upperclassmen are trying to run the offense and generate shots from it rather than just jacking shots up. I'm sure this is work-in-progress and will get better throughout the season.

We hope.
I hate placing hope into the equation. But for the sake of this team, I hope you're right. My only issue is the way these two have started the season matches past performance -- and it may be a trend.

I chalked both guys and their poor shooting up to being freshman last year as they I believe Cole shot like 33% and Marico shot like 40%. However, after two games, they are both at the same pace or lower. I said in my season preview that shooting would be key for these two guys and the team as you just can't win games in college when your two top scorers (shooters) both shoot under 40%.

Here's to hope!